If you’ve ever been to New York City, you’ve probably noticed the heaps of plastic trash bags that line many sidewalks. Unlike other major cities, New York famously has no alleyways, which means trash has no dedicated space between collection days. Not only are the trash bags an eyesore on the landscape, but they attract rats.

In February, the city announced a revised plan to deal with its very visible trash problem by “containerizing” it. But the plan has been met with some criticism.

“Marketplace” Kai Ryssdal spoke with Larry Buchanan, a reporter for The New York Times, about an article he co-authored that examined the city’s trash mess and the plan to fix it.

The following is an edited transcript of their conversation.

Kai Ryssdal: For those perhaps unfamiliar who’ve maybe never been to New York City on trash collection day, what does it look like on trash day?

Larry Buchanan: Well, trash day happens all over the city all the time. So many places in the city get trash picked up three times a week, some two. And there are piles of trash, large piles of trash, large bags filled with recycling all over the city. And if you live here, it’s something you just kind of live with and you at some point stop seeing.

Ryssdal: Yeah. You know, I grew up not far from New York, and I remember seeing that when I was a kid. And here we are many, many decades later and it’s the same. In point of fact, trash collection in New York City now is the same as it’s been for, like, 100 years.

Buchanan: Yes, trash collection is almost exactly the same as it’s been for a very, very, very long time. In New York City, there’s no place to put stuff. And so, you put it out on the street, and they form large piles in front of large apartment buildings that you really can’t avoid.

Ryssdal: OK look, New York City is one of the wonders of the modern world, right? It’s got monuments of architecture, it’s got monuments that are just monuments, it’s got Central Park, it’s got all of those things. How was it possible you guys haven’t figured out how to collect the trash yet?

Buchanan: It’s a problem that the sanitation department is working on every single minute of every single day. There are 804,000 residences in New York City that get a trash truck that comes to them three or two times a week, which is kind of an insane feat. And the trash is picked up, like, piece by piece by hand by two people in the back of a truck. And the city has a plan now to do this hybrid model where they’re going to try to force smaller buildings to use these wheeled bins that are in use, you know, all across the country. And then there will be these larger on-street containers that will be dedicated to buildings that a [superintendent] can use to put their trash in. But the trade-offs between that is that the bins will have to go on the streets, and that will take up street parking. And people are kind of always upset when we have to make these kinds of trade-offs.

Ryssdal: But other cities, forget just in the United States, but like the whole rest of the world, have figured out how to containerize their trash. Where did New York City miss the turnoff?

Buchanan: There are a couple bits in New York City’s history, particularly starting in 1811 where a couple of guys laid out the city’s grid, and they provided for no service alleys, you know, that cities like Philadelphia or D.C. or Chicago have, where we can neatly tuck trash behind buildings. And then as we kind of move further forward in time, in 1950 the city legalized overnight street parking, and so cars line the streets and it’s hard to take that space back. And then in 1968, there was a big trash workers strike. And you actually did have to put your trash in a container up until 1968. But there was a strike and the plastics industry came in with this new invention, the plastic bag. They dropped a couple hundred thousand of them on the city for free because they were looking for a place to market this new thing. And sanitation workers loved them because they weren’t loud, they were easier to pick up and they’re easy to sling into the back of a trash truck. And residents kind of loved them too. Because, again, they weren’t loud, you weren’t banging around these old Oscar the Grouch metal trash cans anymore. And so, since 1968 we have kind of been addicted to the plastic bag.

Ryssdal: There is a plan, as you mentioned, that they’re going to containerize it, or however they’re going to do it, depending on where you live and what kind of building you’re in. The question, I guess is, how do the people of New York City feel about this? Because I imagine you all are just kind of used to it.

Buchanan: Yeah. I think people are kind of skeptical in some sense. But also, you know, they have a pilot program of this going on in west Harlem right now. And we spent some time up in west Harlem, and when we were walking down the street, actually, we talked to a guy who was standing outside of his house and we said, “What do you think of these on-street containers?” And he said, “Look, I got to give props to the rat lady on this one. It’s really reduced the rats, and that’s a big, big, big problem in New York. And you know we’ll see what happens.”

Ryssdal: We should point out that New York City now actually has a woman who is the rat commissioner, right?

Buchanan: Yeah. Rat czar I think is the term.